FAQ's

 

Why a hybrid coil system compared to a coil only replacement system?

The key is you get a plusher more coil like feel because the spring rate is not over sized because no full stroke ramp up exists with current MTB coil forks.
How can we better make a coil fork even better!


A little history as to how this happened:


  The original or traditional coil forks were designed for for MX and the early MTB forks with a damper and spring in each side, filled about 2/3’s with oil. This allowed the fork to create a coil spring like feel for the first half of the travel. The air space above the oil is compressed which produces an additional spring force in the last half of the travel. This additional air spring effect does two things, it allows the selected coil spring rate to be much softer because the air supplements and increases the spring rate and the ramp up or progression can still be controlled by the air volume compression by changing the oil height.
 MTB forks eliminated one damper to save weight and reduce the cost to produce over the past 20 years and used a single long over rated spring with no oil in the coil leg. This led to an air spring version that emulates a coil to further reduce the  weight.
 This is essentially is where we are now with your typical air spring system single damper front fork.
 Our hybrid coil conversion brings back the ideal coil/air spring system without the added weight of traditional spring/oil filled fork. The air side is still used to create the additional spring rate and ramp rate at a much lower pressure. We use our open bath damper with a lighter and shorter coil spring on top of it. The air spring side remains unchanged and creates the additional spring rate. The air side now uses about 1/3 the pressure that you currently used to create the additional spring rate which can be adjusted to support your weight and ramp up desired. 
 This hybrid system works in conjunction with our open bath custom valved damper with our exclusive midvalve and high speed blow off system (FvAT/HSB). Our damper creates a very supportive compression system that prevents fork dive and still feels plush on small bumps. This midvalve system and base valve will still blow off to prevent deep square edged harshness without bottoming.
 The damper and hybrid spring are $499 and $199 respectively.  The spring weighs about 180-250 grams and the open bath damper weighs within 100 grams of the latest sealed OEM dampers. The optional FvAT/HSB is $99.


Available for Rockshox Boxxer, Fox 40, Fox 49, Bomber 58, BomberZ1 (160/150/140),  Fox 38 (170/160Fox 36 (160/150/140), some Fox 34 and Z2 (150), Pike 29er (2014-17) 150, Zeb (190/170/160), Yari/Lyrik, 160/150/140(riders under 200 lbs). 
MRP (160,150), Bartlett 200.

The air spring side controls the travel but the damper upgrade can accommodate 180-203 travel. Obviously the purpose of a custom valved damper is it would be set up for your current travel and rider requirements. It can be self installed and revalved  by you or your local tuner. If you decide to add the optional hybrid coil spring it would be specific to the travel. Generally as the travel is increased the spring needs to be softer for a given rider weight and obviously longer to accommodate the increased travel. Shipping is about $65.

Coil Shock Tuning Requirements

Maybe I can explain by telling you the three things that are required for proper suspension performance.


1) Proper linear spring rate to support the riders weight at 30% sag based on the starting/average leverage of the linkage.


2) Supportive compression damping that matches the leverage curve and is able to relieve itself on higher speed hits.


3) Progression in the linkage system that speeds up the piston deeper in the stroke to resist bottoming and g-outs, or a band-aid device matched with damping to add progression only to the last 1/3 of the travel. Otherwise the beginning and middle of the stroke will be compromised by an overly stiff or progressive spring.


The issue you have is the leverage of both the Scout and Process 153 are lacking progression needed for a linear coil system. The shocks you are using are unable to produce supportive compression without extreme harshness on squared edged bumps. They are not revalveable and use very small 22 mm non-midvalve designs with only 8/9 mm shafts that can’t support tapered bumper ramp up designs(too small for ours and too weak in our opinion to support these loads)


DB have design issues and only produce crude threshold damping at the expense of rider external adjusters. You need better quality mid and high speed damping which the DB/X2’s can’t produce. It essentially only makes low speed bleed damping and high speed threshold resistance, set too far in and it is harsh, too far out and it is over come too easily and blows thru the stroke. 
The best solution is to use midvalve style pistons with piston/shaft diameters (27-30 mm/12.5-12.7) optimized to displace damping fluid thru a compression adjuster shimmed system, such as a BomberCr, Fox VanRc , RS Super Deluxe/Kage, Push 11-6, and our shocks or similar designs.

AVA
EXT Tuning
The Ext is expensive and the biggest issue is no service parts in the US. This makes it difficult to service and tune, the BomberCr has the same internal tuning features. Repair parts are in stock and tuning is very easy with standard shim sizes. Cost is only $300 for the stock damper, tuning costs are $249-399 depending on spring and options we make. We also sell our own shock for $899 as well.
I am not a professional why will I need tuning?
Sorry that you think our tunes are for professionals, we solve unique solutions such as yours as well.We recommend shocks that will be able to support the rider weight and not over load the shock, tuning will not correct this and purchasing the correct shock for the job is imperative and because of your weight, the extra ebike weight and high leverage initial loading this requires you to use a coil shock. All air shocks will require approximately the same starting pressure and essentially the same disappointing results. When you are ready to purchase the correct solution give us a call.
Hybrid coil to fit a 170/180 Lyrik/Yari?
Hybrid coil to fit a Lyrik/Yari is not going to happen because the physical space,  length and diameter are too small to create a coil spring rate firm enough to support half your weight and still have 180 of travel.  Also we feel the Yari/Lyrik is too flexible for 170-180 mm travel for riders over 180 lbs. Fox is coming out with a 38 mm version of the Fox36 for 170-180mm to deal with this flex. The best solution available now is the Boxxer dual crown 180 mm version, we make a coil hybrid cartridge system for this fork.
X2 tuning and service issues?
You need better quality mid and high speed damping which the X2 can’t produce. It essentially only makes low speed bleed damping and high speed threshold resistance, set too far in and it is harsh, too far out and it is over come too easily and blows thru the stroke. Adding air ramp up only creates a stiffer spring deeper in the travel limiting travel on rocks and ledge bumps. Sorry we are not able to convert these new versions of the X2 anymore to a better tuned internal system.We are unable to make the mods to the 2018-2020 versions because the internal parts needed are no longer available from Fox. We can service and only make minor changes to the internal compression threshold which in our opinion are not effective enough for progressive linkages. We are offering custom tunes and modifications to the Fox/Marzocchi BomberCr coil shocks.
Why an air shock is not the best choice?

Part of the issue is the very progressive linkage works better with more linear shocks like a coil. Even with no bands the Debon air can will still have some progression which will limit the travel. The other issue is higher starting leverage requires higher pressures to set sag properly which also adds to much pressure at the end of stroke which limits the travel. Adding volume to the negative side will help a bit but pressures will still be too higher than desired at the end of stroke. Our SSD/HSB tune will help deep squared edged bumps and provide a higher ride height with more supportive compression that still blows off. Travel will be limited a bit due to air ramp up.
This brings us to a coil shock would be a better choice with this linkage. We would recommend a Fox VanRc/BomberCr tuned by us as a more aggressive solution. 

Fox VanRc/BomberCr

What is the best way to put a coil shock on your bike?

You could purchase a BomberCR (230 x 60/65) no spring and have it drop
shipped to us. typically $300 (do not order a Fox spring)
We would then modify and tune the shock, and supply the proper spring for
your weight.

Tuning $249
Modifications:
Hybrid Progressive coil Conversion Kit $54.95
Hard coated aluminum IFP $29.95
AVA/RS 1.50 inch inside diameter spring $59.95
Your hardware reducers from your old shock you
would transfer to this shock
We can send you an invoice for this build if you wish or you can go online
and fill out the form and shopping cart.

Does AVA offfer a MRP open bath damper upgraded cartridge?

Price will be $499 for the cartridge and requires an
older non ramp air cap to complete the install.
The Ribbon damper is the basic of all dampers out there, it uses gated flow orifice damping, very crude and produces a very firm feel that acts very harsh at speeds, this harshness is relieved by opening the gate(turning the adjuster all the way out)to increase flow but results in no low speed support and now blows thru travel too easily and results in excessive fork dive and bottoming. This requires over springing and excessive ramp up all producing undesirable suspension feeling.

 
We also have developed a few
other improvements to the air ramp system and better lower friction SKF seals
and more durable shrink wrap replacement and position to reduce stiction. We
will also be recommending the correct spring for your weight when using our
cartridge that provides much more compression support without the harsh stock
non-shimmed design.

The stock bushings are really not an
issue, most of the stiction comes from the damper that’s being removed and the
spring that binds in the stanchion due to shrink wrap damage and rollup upon
itself.

Are ramp devices recommended withouir open bath damper?
The MRP ramp is not going to solve your issues, it only adds adjustable ramp up at the end of stroke with a bit more external control than adding and removing tokens. Too much progression just adds a trampoline affect when bottoming, when you want a more jumping into a swimming pool effect to resist bottoming. Quality damping that’s not harsh,  thru the entire stroke with a more linear spring, prevents the bounce back affects. So a little progression is good but too much resists bumps at the expense of tying to stopping bottoming.
The theory behind our Hybrid coil/air setup is to keep the spring rate as linear as possible with only the natural full stoke ramp up the air side produces. Currently there are no tokens in the air side. Adding the ramp control devices actually take up the space of about 1.5 to 2 tokens even when the system is fully open or in the least progressive setting. You would only need this if you were trying to create a more progressive feel for bigger jumps and drops,  but this progression reduces the bump absorption capability by creating unwanted progression from the more linear setup.
 
The MRP/Runt ramp only adds adjustable ramp up at the end of stroke with a bit more external control than adding and removing tokens. Too much progression just adds a trampoline affect when bottoming, when you want a more jumping into a swimming pool affect to resist bottoming. Quality damping that’s not harsh,  thru the entire stroke with a more linear spring, prevents the bounce back affects. So a little progression is good but too much resists bumps at the expense of tying to stopping bottoming. In other words if you ride natural rocky/roots progression is not wanted, if smooth park jumplines require more bottoming resistance the ramp devices/tokens need to be used as a last resort
Why an open setting does not provide quality supportive damping?

The goal of a proper damper is to provide a firm low speed feel that still opens up on small bumps, enough mid speed damping to prevent fork dive without a harsh medium bump feel and enough high speed damping to prevent bottoming while still able to blow-off on high speed square edged bumps. Most of todays dampers have a very firm shim stack with a high threshold to get them to begin to open. This is because the design is based around the pedal platform which needs a very high threshold to prevent unwanted movement in the beginning of the stroke. It also allows heavier riders to be accommodated with the mass production generic valving. Because of this firmer valving system they chose to provide an open or bypass mode to allow the oil to go around these shims. This effectively makes the damper feel softer but at the expense of not allowing low to mid speed damping to be created, i.e. its just a hole. Adding low speed compression helps the fork dive but at the expense of creating a very harsh feel when hitting bumps. Most riders end up with this compromise and settle for this as the best setting that sort of works. As a result of this softer open mode most experience a very soft midstroke, bottoming way too easily and end up adding tokens to prevent this, resulting in a very progressive unwanted feel again.


Our damper modifications and cartridge systems provide the necessary damping circuits for us to valve and set up you suspension properly. In the case of the forks we replace the stock damper with our open bath cartridge. For the rear shocks we have redesigned the internal adjustment systems which allows us to revalve the main piston to properly match your linkage leverage. Each of these systems are set up and designed around descending rather than pedaling, this allows for the main valving systems to meter the damping properly providing a firmer more controlled descent will still maintaining that plush feel. Essentially you can dial in the desired compression damping without that harsh feel, this will provide you with the proper balance between trail and descending.

How can you switch your shock to a standard mount for Trek bikes?
Trek Slash/Remedy converts to a 230 x 57.5(60/65 with 7.5 mm spacer),

This is the hardware required:

Upper Shock Link Mounting Bolt = Trek Part # 540755

Lower Shock Link Mounting Bolt = Trek Part # 540756 (Supposedly just
for carbon chainstays, two of # 540755 works if aluminum chainstays)

Upper FOX
shock mounting hardware - 10mm x 60mm - FOX Part #: 803-03-231 

Lower FOX
shock mounting hardware - 10mm x 50mm (offset spacers) - FOX Part #: 803-03-228 or
TREK Part #: 525244 

Do we recommend The Hazzard/Jade on progressive linkages?
For this fairly progressive leverage the hazard/jade will not work well because the larger shaft displaces too much oil creating too much high speed compression. We would recommend a shock with a smaller shaft and larger body diameter. The Fox VanRc or BomberCr would be a better choice
The shaft diameter determines how much oil volume is metered thru the compression adjustment system. When a shock is compressed the oil displaced by the shaft must pass into the reservoir. Too much too fast causes a restriction resulting in a harsh feeling. A progressive linkage accelerates the shaft deeper in the stroke resulting in very high damping forces so a larger shaft basically creates to much damping that cannot be relieved by revalving because there is too much flow. It is generally it is thought that a large shaft will create a large adjustment range because more oil can be metered but this kind of backfires when the shaft speeds get to fast say on square edged bumps and ledge bumps. Rough rule of thumb is the shaft is about 30% of the main piston (midvalve) area. Hope this helps, kind of an engineering thing
Is the DPS shock a good enough shock for us to tune?
We offer DPS tuning for your shock, and this is your best option for us to tune on the Mojo. The inline DPS is more than adequate for 130mm travel frames. We can make it feel more supportive and ride higher in the stroke to take advantage of the highly progressive first half of the travel, this will allow small bumps and chop to feel more compliant. The stock open setting allows the shock to ride too deep in the stroke where the linkage feels stiffer and effectively cutting the travel in half. The internal high speed damping will be softened to absorb deeper high speed roots and rocks. Tuning cost is $249.
Why front and rear shoud be consider during tuning?
We like to consider the whole bike as the front and rear as well as the head tube angle vs front travel. Yes, a more supportive compression damper will prevent fork dive and unwanted movement but it also needs to absorb small and medium bumps and not be harsh without bottoming. Our damper performs all these functions well and the spring side will not needs excessive ramp up and an over rate spring. We might suggest a rate lower than push/vorsprung recommendations depending on riding conditions and ability because of a more supportive damper design that we offer. This also means a lock out lever will not be needed so fine tuning with our low speed shim activation system works amazing as a set it and forget it.
Canecreek tuning?

We are not able to tune cane creek shocks as they have no internal midvalving to tune and the shock is all about the rough external damper adjustments that only produce a crude threshold damping and low speed bleed.
Why are the Fox 40 pressure pressure spring versions are not being produced?

The open bath is lower cost and all our options fit this damper as well as our hybrid coil system. We can replace the seals and service the spring side, recommend the proper spring and install our cartridge for you.


Cartridge $449
Optional FvAT/HSB $89
Install and set up damper and spring $100
Seals and labor $100
Spring if needed $49

Why can't we tune R only models?
We prefer not to tune the R models because the lack of missing internal parts need to properly tune a shock to create a supportive feel without being too harsh, and you will have no adjustment to adjust this feeling away. The RCT is a very expensive shock and with the tuning you will have over $800 into the shock, not very cost effective for the performance improvements being only marginal. Have you considered a coil shock upgrade, we are tuning BomberCr coil shocks which cost about $300 and for about $300 we can tune the for much better performance than the RCT
Can I resize the woodie or chubie shocks?
The Woodie shock can be resized. It is possible but all the expensive parts like the shaft, bottom eye, rebound rod, shock body, top housing bridge reducer bushings all need to be replaced. It might be better to sell the shock for $400-500 and use this towards a new one?
Estimated cost for this is over $450 and a new shock is $799
Why do I need an Avalanche open bath damper to add the hybrid spring system?
The hybrid coil is an option that can be added to the open bath damper cartridge that we offer to improve the air spring system by properly supporting your weight with both the hybrid coil and air spring system combined. In other words you can’t just use the hybrid coil without the open bath damper.
Your issue with the stock damper is that it can’t create supportive quality compression so you are forced to turn it out most of the way and now it blows thru the stroke and bottoms easily which forces you to add tokens and use a higher pressure to prevent fork dive. This chain of events stems from the damper performance and the lack of initial spring rate not developed by the debonair spring. The damper fixes the lack of quality damping and the hybrid coil corrects the initial spring rate and physically corrects the beginning stroke with actual preload on the spring.
The MRP ramp is not going to solve your issues, it only adds adjustable ramp up at the end of stroke with a bit more external control than adding and removing tokens. Too much progression just adds a trampoline affect when bottoming, when you want a more jumping into a swimming pool affect to resist bottoming. Quality damping that’s not harsh,  thru the entire stroke with a more linear spring, prevents the bounce back affects. So a little progression is good but too much resists bumps at the expense of tying to stopping bottoming.
I think you missed the whole point here. The Yari/Lyrik forks have marginal dampers and do not work very well. We sell a upgraded damper to replace them. The hybrid coil option for the openbath damper improves the spring system by creating a coil feel with the air spring system left in tack to create the required ramp up and addition spring force. It cannot be purchased as a stand-alone system
Can my Cartridge be switched to another fork?
You would have to send the cartridge back to be reconfigured, it will need a new, fork cap, base adaptor, shorter cartridge tube, a different length cartridge rod and rebound rod. Cost is approx. $89 for labor and $196 for parts.
Interesting that you feel that your fork is packing.
Are you looking for the poppy no damping feel that most stock dampers end up having when you turn out all the damping? Where in the stroke is it packing. The evol air spring has nearly half the spring rate in the first 30 mm as it does in the next 30 mm, this causes a packing feel, the reason many switch to coil or our hybrid coil system. In other words the spring does not push back with enough force so it stays down in the stroke, and feels like it it’s packing. No matter how fast you run the rebound this will always feel that way, it will get to the point where the fork is dancing around but still packs up when hitting consecutive bumps on steeper descents.
I can’t really recommend a valving that will correct this and still work well on bigger bumps as well. Let me know how you want to proceed

 

 

 

 e-mail at :

techinfo@avalanchedownhillracing.com