FAQ's
Why a hybrid
coil system compared to a coil only replacement system? |
The key is you get a plusher more coil like feel because the spring
rate is not over sized because no full stroke ramp up exists with current
MTB coil forks.
The air spring side controls the travel but the damper upgrade can
accommodate 180-203 travel. Obviously the purpose of a custom valved
damper is it would be set up for your current travel and rider requirements.
It can be self installed and revalved by you or your local tuner.
If you decide to add the optional hybrid coil spring it would be specific
to the travel. Generally as the travel is increased the spring needs
to be softer for a given rider weight and obviously longer to accommodate
the increased travel. Shipping is about $65. |
Coil Shock Tuning Requirements |
Maybe I can explain by telling you the three things that are required for proper suspension performance.
|
AVA EXT Tuning |
The Ext is expensive and the biggest issue is no service parts in the US. This makes it difficult to service and tune, the BomberCr has the same internal tuning features. Repair parts are in stock and tuning is very easy with standard shim sizes. Cost is only $300 for the stock damper, tuning costs are $249-399 depending on spring and options we make. We also sell our own shock for $899 as well. |
I am not a
professional why will I need tuning? |
Sorry that you think our tunes are for professionals, we solve unique solutions such as yours as well.We recommend shocks that will be able to support the rider weight and not over load the shock, tuning will not correct this and purchasing the correct shock for the job is imperative and because of your weight, the extra ebike weight and high leverage initial loading this requires you to use a coil shock. All air shocks will require approximately the same starting pressure and essentially the same disappointing results. When you are ready to purchase the correct solution give us a call. |
Hybrid coil
to fit a 170/180 Lyrik/Yari? |
Hybrid coil to fit a Lyrik/Yari is not going to happen because the physical space, length and diameter are too small to create a coil spring rate firm enough to support half your weight and still have 180 of travel. Also we feel the Yari/Lyrik is too flexible for 170-180 mm travel for riders over 180 lbs. Fox is coming out with a 38 mm version of the Fox36 for 170-180mm to deal with this flex. The best solution available now is the Boxxer dual crown 180 mm version, we make a coil hybrid cartridge system for this fork. |
X2 tuning and
service issues? |
You need better quality mid and high speed damping which the X2 can’t produce. It essentially only makes low speed bleed damping and high speed threshold resistance, set too far in and it is harsh, too far out and it is over come too easily and blows thru the stroke. Adding air ramp up only creates a stiffer spring deeper in the travel limiting travel on rocks and ledge bumps. Sorry we are not able to convert these new versions of the X2 anymore to a better tuned internal system.We are unable to make the mods to the 2018-2020 versions because the internal parts needed are no longer available from Fox. We can service and only make minor changes to the internal compression threshold which in our opinion are not effective enough for progressive linkages. We are offering custom tunes and modifications to the Fox/Marzocchi BomberCr coil shocks. |
Why an air
shock is not the best choice? |
Part of the issue is the very progressive linkage works better with
more linear shocks like a coil. Even with no bands the Debon air can
will still have some progression which will limit the travel. The other
issue is higher starting leverage requires higher pressures to set sag
properly which also adds to much pressure at the end of stroke which
limits the travel. Adding volume to the negative side will help a bit
but pressures will still be too higher than desired at the end of stroke.
Our SSD/HSB tune will help deep squared edged bumps and provide a higher
ride height with more supportive compression that still blows off. Travel
will be limited a bit due to air ramp up. |
What is the
best way to put a coil shock on your bike? |
You could purchase a BomberCR (230 x 60/65) no spring and have it
drop Tuning $249 |
Does AVA offfer
a MRP open bath damper upgraded cartridge? |
Price will be $499 for the cartridge and requires an The stock bushings are really not an |
Are ramp devices
recommended withouir open bath damper? |
The MRP ramp is not going to solve your issues, it only adds adjustable
ramp up at the end of stroke with a bit more external control than adding
and removing tokens. Too much progression just adds a trampoline affect
when bottoming, when you want a more jumping into a swimming pool effect
to resist bottoming. Quality damping that’s not harsh, thru
the entire stroke with a more linear spring, prevents the bounce back
affects. So a little progression is good but too much resists bumps at
the expense of tying to stopping bottoming. The theory behind our Hybrid coil/air setup is to keep the spring rate as linear as possible with only the natural full stoke ramp up the air side produces. Currently there are no tokens in the air side. Adding the ramp control devices actually take up the space of about 1.5 to 2 tokens even when the system is fully open or in the least progressive setting. You would only need this if you were trying to create a more progressive feel for bigger jumps and drops, but this progression reduces the bump absorption capability by creating unwanted progression from the more linear setup. The MRP/Runt ramp only adds adjustable ramp up at the end of stroke with a bit more external control than adding and removing tokens. Too much progression just adds a trampoline affect when bottoming, when you want a more jumping into a swimming pool affect to resist bottoming. Quality damping that’s not harsh, thru the entire stroke with a more linear spring, prevents the bounce back affects. So a little progression is good but too much resists bumps at the expense of tying to stopping bottoming. In other words if you ride natural rocky/roots progression is not wanted, if smooth park jumplines require more bottoming resistance the ramp devices/tokens need to be used as a last resort |
Why an open
setting does not provide quality supportive damping? |
The goal of a proper damper is to provide a firm low speed feel that still opens up on small bumps, enough mid speed damping to prevent fork dive without a harsh medium bump feel and enough high speed damping to prevent bottoming while still able to blow-off on high speed square edged bumps. Most of todays dampers have a very firm shim stack with a high threshold to get them to begin to open. This is because the design is based around the pedal platform which needs a very high threshold to prevent unwanted movement in the beginning of the stroke. It also allows heavier riders to be accommodated with the mass production generic valving. Because of this firmer valving system they chose to provide an open or bypass mode to allow the oil to go around these shims. This effectively makes the damper feel softer but at the expense of not allowing low to mid speed damping to be created, i.e. its just a hole. Adding low speed compression helps the fork dive but at the expense of creating a very harsh feel when hitting bumps. Most riders end up with this compromise and settle for this as the best setting that sort of works. As a result of this softer open mode most experience a very soft midstroke, bottoming way too easily and end up adding tokens to prevent this, resulting in a very progressive unwanted feel again.
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How can you
switch your shock to a standard mount for Trek bikes? |
Trek Slash/Remedy converts to a 230 x 57.5(60/65 with 7.5 mm spacer), This is the hardware required: Upper Shock Link Mounting Bolt = Trek Part # 540755 Lower Shock Link Mounting Bolt = Trek Part # 540756 (Supposedly just Upper FOX Lower FOX |
Do we recommend
The Hazzard/Jade on progressive linkages? |
For this fairly progressive leverage the hazard/jade will not work well
because the larger shaft displaces too much oil creating too much high
speed compression. We would recommend a shock with a smaller shaft and
larger body diameter. The Fox VanRc or BomberCr would be a better choice The shaft diameter determines how much oil volume is metered thru the compression adjustment system. When a shock is compressed the oil displaced by the shaft must pass into the reservoir. Too much too fast causes a restriction resulting in a harsh feeling. A progressive linkage accelerates the shaft deeper in the stroke resulting in very high damping forces so a larger shaft basically creates to much damping that cannot be relieved by revalving because there is too much flow. It is generally it is thought that a large shaft will create a large adjustment range because more oil can be metered but this kind of backfires when the shaft speeds get to fast say on square edged bumps and ledge bumps. Rough rule of thumb is the shaft is about 30% of the main piston (midvalve) area. Hope this helps, kind of an engineering thing |
Is the DPS
shock a good enough shock for us to tune? |
We offer DPS tuning for your shock, and this is your best option for us to tune on the Mojo. The inline DPS is more than adequate for 130mm travel frames. We can make it feel more supportive and ride higher in the stroke to take advantage of the highly progressive first half of the travel, this will allow small bumps and chop to feel more compliant. The stock open setting allows the shock to ride too deep in the stroke where the linkage feels stiffer and effectively cutting the travel in half. The internal high speed damping will be softened to absorb deeper high speed roots and rocks. Tuning cost is $249. |
Why front
and rear shoud be consider during tuning? |
We like to consider the whole bike as the front and rear as well as the head tube angle vs front travel. Yes, a more supportive compression damper will prevent fork dive and unwanted movement but it also needs to absorb small and medium bumps and not be harsh without bottoming. Our damper performs all these functions well and the spring side will not needs excessive ramp up and an over rate spring. We might suggest a rate lower than push/vorsprung recommendations depending on riding conditions and ability because of a more supportive damper design that we offer. This also means a lock out lever will not be needed so fine tuning with our low speed shim activation system works amazing as a set it and forget it. |
Canecreek
tuning? |
We are not able to tune cane creek shocks as they have no internal midvalving to tune and the shock is all about the rough external damper adjustments that only produce a crude threshold damping and low speed bleed. |
Why are the
Fox 40 pressure pressure spring versions are not being produced? |
The open bath is lower cost and all our options fit this damper as well as our hybrid coil system. We can replace the seals and service the spring side, recommend the proper spring and install our cartridge for you.
|
Why can't
we tune R only models? |
We prefer not to tune the R models because the lack of missing internal parts need to properly tune a shock to create a supportive feel without being too harsh, and you will have no adjustment to adjust this feeling away. The RCT is a very expensive shock and with the tuning you will have over $800 into the shock, not very cost effective for the performance improvements being only marginal. Have you considered a coil shock upgrade, we are tuning BomberCr coil shocks which cost about $300 and for about $300 we can tune the for much better performance than the RCT |
Can I resize
the woodie or chubie shocks? |
The Woodie shock can be resized. It is possible but all the expensive
parts like the shaft, bottom eye, rebound rod, shock body, top housing
bridge reducer bushings all need to be replaced. It might be better to
sell the shock for $400-500 and use this towards a new one? Estimated cost for this is over $450 and a new shock is $799 |
Why do I need
an Avalanche open bath damper to add the hybrid spring system? |
The hybrid coil is an option that can be added to the open bath damper
cartridge that we offer to improve the air spring system by properly supporting
your weight with both the hybrid coil and air spring system combined.
In other words you can’t just use the hybrid coil without the open
bath damper. Your issue with the stock damper is that it can’t create supportive quality compression so you are forced to turn it out most of the way and now it blows thru the stroke and bottoms easily which forces you to add tokens and use a higher pressure to prevent fork dive. This chain of events stems from the damper performance and the lack of initial spring rate not developed by the debonair spring. The damper fixes the lack of quality damping and the hybrid coil corrects the initial spring rate and physically corrects the beginning stroke with actual preload on the spring. The MRP ramp is not going to solve your issues, it only adds adjustable ramp up at the end of stroke with a bit more external control than adding and removing tokens. Too much progression just adds a trampoline affect when bottoming, when you want a more jumping into a swimming pool affect to resist bottoming. Quality damping that’s not harsh, thru the entire stroke with a more linear spring, prevents the bounce back affects. So a little progression is good but too much resists bumps at the expense of tying to stopping bottoming. I think you missed the whole point here. The Yari/Lyrik forks have marginal dampers and do not work very well. We sell a upgraded damper to replace them. The hybrid coil option for the openbath damper improves the spring system by creating a coil feel with the air spring system left in tack to create the required ramp up and addition spring force. It cannot be purchased as a stand-alone system |
Can my Cartridge
be switched to another fork? |
You would have to send the cartridge back to be reconfigured, it will need a new, fork cap, base adaptor, shorter cartridge tube, a different length cartridge rod and rebound rod. Cost is approx. $89 for labor and $196 for parts. |
Interesting
that you feel that your fork is packing. |
Are you looking for the poppy no damping feel that most stock dampers
end up having when you turn out all the damping? Where in the stroke is
it packing. The evol air spring has nearly half the spring rate in the
first 30 mm as it does in the next 30 mm, this causes a packing feel,
the reason many switch to coil or our hybrid coil system. In other words
the spring does not push back with enough force so it stays down in the
stroke, and feels like it it’s packing. No matter how fast you run
the rebound this will always feel that way, it will get to the point where
the fork is dancing around but still packs up when hitting consecutive
bumps on steeper descents. I can’t really recommend a valving that will correct this and still work well on bigger bumps as well. Let me know how you want to proceed |
Typical answers
to e-mails |
The goal of a proper damper is: To provide a firm low speed feel that still opens up on small bumps,
enough mid speed damping to prevent fork dive without a harsh medium
bump feel and enough high speed damping to prevent bottoming while still
able to blow-off on high speed square edged bumps. Most of todays dampers
have a very firm shim stack with a high threshold to get them to begin
to open. This is because the design is based around the pedal platform
which needs a very high threshold to prevent unwanted movement in the
beginning of the stroke. It also allows heavier riders to be accommodated
with the mass production generic valving. Because of this firmer valving
system they chose to provide an open or bypass mode to allow the oil
to go around these shims. This effectively makes the damper feel softer
but at the expense of not allowing low to mid speed damping to be created,
i.e. its just a hole. Adding low speed compression helps the fork dive
but at the expense of creating a very harsh feel when hitting bumps.
Most riders end up with this compromise and settle for this as the best
setting that sort of works. As a result of this softer open mode most
experience a very soft midstroke, bottoming way too easily and end up
adding tokens to prevent this, resulting in a very progressive unwanted
feel again. |
Fork dive The lack of supportive compression damping is the cause of fork dive. Proper shimmed base valve and midvalves are required to prevent this. The stock damper or any damper that has an open unrestricted flow path is the issue. In other words running very little low speed compression damping to prevent higher speed harshness has its drawbacks and compromises. This is the reason for offering our damper for upgrade. The excessive negative spring adjustment pressure can also contribute to fork dive as well. In other words trying to compensate for the damper harshness with the softer initial spring rate is another compromise that produces excessive fork dive. |
History of twin chamber cartridges
These dampers are much more complicated than todays so called The Push H97 replaces the Trail/Lock part of this circuit The twin chamber forks are not actually sealed and contained We actually designed and sold twin chamber dampers for the So our open bath system is simple to maintain, adds the much |
FVAT/HSB
|
Harsh stock dampers
|
Fox Grip 2 lack of tuning What is your specific question? Do all these knobs and adjustments make your fork work better? The point I am making is custom internal tuning is more effective than these high speed adjuster systems that essentially interfere with the damping with the more traditional shimmed piston/base valve system. The grip 1 actually works much better. This is the reason we make our own cartridge s so they can be tuned internally. |
Just to be sure that you understand why air forks limit your travel. This is because the air pressure required to set sag also increases the spring rate at the bottom of the travel and with the air being progressive, this ramp-up makes it impossible to use full travel on rock rough chunk. Setting the sag with preload on a coil spring does nothing to increase the rate of the linear coil spring system. This allows full travel to absorb bumps while the air pressure is used to now to independently add the desired progression. |
MRP cartridge upgrade: Price is $499 for the cartridge and requires an We offer our custom valved advanced valving damper system like MX and
F1 No need to upgrade the bushings. The stock bushings are really not
an issue, most of the stiction comes from the damper that’s being
removed and The stock bushings are really not an MRP offers a bushing replacement if |
Debonair C1 vs B1
|
The hybrid coil is an option that can be added to the open bath damper cartridge: We offer to improve the air spring system by properly supporting your
weight with both the hybrid coil and air spring system combined. In
other words you can’t just use the hybrid coil without the open
bath damper. |
e-mail at :
techinfo@avalanchedownhillracing.com